Curse

Jam Jar · Jul 22, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Hello, I've taken a look at the sticky, but I'm still a bit in doubt about what to do for frontline, especially calling. What exactly are you looking for to base your calls on, specifically spikes: spikes on more than one character, spikes on one character, and the time period in which you use the spike; splits: both offense and defense; or defensive calls: "fall-backs" or linebacking?

In addition, our guild is thinking of running "meta" Balanced for GvG to build experience: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_GvG_Balanced

From what I've heard, spiking while dishing pressure is a good way to unload a spike, but I'm not exactly sure what to do if a warrior did not have adrenaline to spike. Waiting around would hinder the spike, or would the dev hammer simply just rely on protector's while the whirling relies on a small KD with shock? Also, how would this particular spike take place? An option I'd seen before was to KD the prot monk and leave the Whirling to camp the infuse. Would this work? Or would training on one character to KD and axe spike be better?

A bit unrelated, but I've also got a question about the Balanced build. Recently, the fast cast water ele got changed to a Mindblast. Is this practical/"balanced"? The snarer in my opinion would provide loads more hex/damage pressure towards the frontline, snaring in the meantime. Instead of trying on meteor to stop warrior spikes, blurred vision does a pretty good job already. And in the end, would the FC be able to aid in spikes as well? The only pro to Mindblast that I see would be area of effect fire damage, slight reliability on attunements, and spammed pressure. Is it worth it? Not to me, I wouldn't sacrifice the defensive capabilities of FC and rely solely on the CE.

I Angra I · Jul 22, 2009, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Good Warrior Guide

if a warrior doesn't have adrenaline when the other warrior is calling a spike or whatever, just do whatever you can at the time, bulls or shock a monk or something on the spike, if you're running balanced most spikes won't be clean anyway and you'll be more pressuring with quick spikes to eventually kill them

a fire ele can be run in balanced, but it would be doing more splitting to get lord damage for 28 minutes or to keep their flag runner back so you have an easier time pressuring at stand from the other team's lack of party healing

If you'd rather play just 8v8 balanced, use a bsurge or mirror of ice water ele instead

EDIT: in that build you posted from wiki, you would be leaving in the dom mesmer if you are putting in a water ele or bsurge. the corrupt enchants mesmer works best with the fire ele, for the same reasons I listed above with a fire ele, and it creates a lot more pressure in general 8v8, but isn't really considered to be *the* "balanced build", though is undoubtedly easier to play unless you have someone who is really good at dom mes

it's possible to use a ranger, corrupt Me/N, bsurge/water ele midline, though it's not as common, but should probably be easier than running a dom mes if you aren't able to be successful with one from a lack of someone being able to play it or whatever. it's usually run with the fire ele though as it works really well for just pure pressure.

Jam Jar · Jul 22, 2009, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

Good Warrior Guide

Thanks for the guide, I'll take a look at that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

a fire ele can be run in balanced, but it would be doing more splitting to get lord damage for 28 minutes or to keep their flag runner back so you have an easier time pressuring at stand from the other team's lack of party healing

Unless if you mod the fire ele, it currently does not have flame djinn's, which I would think would kill their splitting ability. If it could split, we could work with that, but for the most part, I'd rather use something like a FC water or B-surge, as you suggested, because of their versatality at stand.

Speaking about keeping the flagger in the back, what would you do if YOU were forced to keep your flagger at base but you needed to run the flag?

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

in that build you posted from wiki, you would be leaving in the dom mesmer if you are putting in a water ele or bsurge. the corrupt enchants mesmer works best with the fire ele, for the same reasons I listed above with a fire ele

I guess FC CE is a nice alternative, although it does lack the interrupt abilities. I don't understand what you mean by the same reasons. The FC CE wouldn't split right?

Zzes Tyan · Jul 23, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jam Jar

Thanks for the guide, I'll take a look at that.

Unless if you mod the fire ele, it currently does not have flame djinn's, which I would think would kill their splitting ability. If it could split, we could work with that, but for the most part, I'd rather use something like a FC water or B-surge, as you suggested, because of their versatality at stand.

Speaking about keeping the flagger in the back, what would you do if YOU were forced to keep your flagger at base but you needed to run the flag?

I guess FC CE is a nice alternative, although it does lack the interrupt abilities. I don't understand what you mean by the same reasons. The FC CE wouldn't split right?

a few comments,

1: the Mindblast really doesnt need flame djinns to split, it can still split without saccing a sig when your at stand

2: your ranger should be able to provide all the interupts you need, allowing for you to bring a FC CE if your ranger cant provide the shutdown your doing something wrong

3: FC CE blows shit up with barbs+100b Sword War (run whirling, shockaxe or primal for caller, Sword for 2nd war)

4: if you need to run a flag while the flagger is holding base get the ranger or a war to do it.

5: MB Spam>Bsurge>FC Water If your running the build right their wars should be forced to lineback constantly

My guild runs this:

1 Shockaxe (Caller)

1 HB War w/ Death Pact Sig (2nd War)

1 MelShot (Ranger duh?)

1 FC Curses (Midline)

1 MB Spam (Stand Modded, no Flame Djinns)

1 Prot (backline)

1 Infuse (backline)

1 EPrism Flagger (Runner)

to compensate for the lack of snares we bring Freezing Gust on the flagger.

While EPrism Flagger is fairly fragile, it can hold out to give you enough time to collapse on the split.

Tactics Tips:

1: time kill stuff, when they are falling back bodyblock something and when the timer hits an even minute, kill it. they will be down a man for 2 minutes unless they manage to push you out and res it.

2: Don't attempt to kill the guildlord with less than 30 sec left until they res (unless they are heavily DPed out). Pull knights, wipe bodyguard and fall back so you arent taking pressure from archers in addition to their team. Wipe them again and push for lord.

3: Don't get hit by the catapult. it seems like a dumb thing to do, but it happens. Don't try to fight them in the blast radius unless you have control of the repair kit.

4: if you can't 8v8 them, split. with that set up i showed you you have 2 easily splittable characters, and can force a full collapse giving your stand team valuble opportunities to snare and kill.

Hope it helps. if you have any further questions PM Zzes Tyan or Zzes Is Lame (separate accounts)

oh and did i mention we flawlessed VD with that build?

x sithis x · Jul 23, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

get a spear & build adrenaline with it, when u have a decent amount go in & make them go cry

Jam Jar · Jul 23, 2009, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

2: your ranger should be able to provide all the interupts you need, allowing for you to bring a FC CE if your ranger cant provide the shutdown your doing something wrong

Bullshit? Assuming your ranger doesn't run up directly next to the enemy backline and camp, even twitching 3/4s is harder because of your other roles: spreading poison/stopping spikes. Domination mesmers make the job a lot easier while providing some support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

5: MB Spam>Bsurge>FC Water If your running the build right their wars should be forced to lineback constantly

On what standard are you basing this on, and what are your reasons for this? MB Spam uses its raw power and KD to dish out damage and support, but the other two have a very different job. I don't even think categorizing the three is even practical. Yes, BSurge and FC Water obviously are probably never going to top out MB's pressure, but that's not the point of a FC Water or BSurge. What the two do is place pressure on the frontline so that they do their job as crap and slow their adrenaline gain. The remaining skills will help support spikes and such.

Force the warriors to lineback? What the hell do you even mean by that? Dishing enough damage to slow the monk's energy? Forcing the warriors to lineback you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

to compensate for the lack of snares we bring Freezing Gust on the flagger.

At the very least, this is poor compensation. Your flagger is not going to be with your main team all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

oh and did i mention we flawlessed VD with that build?

Honestly, I couldn't care less what you beat flawlessly with a build. I haven't said it now, but I will. Balanced (normal) is definitely harder to use, but the reason our guild is planning on using it is because it builds faster due to its adapation. Right now, we're not trying to win, we're trying to get better.

Zzes Tyan · Jul 23, 2009, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jam Jar

Bullshit? Assuming your ranger doesn't run up directly next to the enemy backline and camp, even twitching 3/4s is harder because of your other roles: spreading poison/stopping spikes. Domination mesmers make the job a lot easier while providing some support.

On what standard are you basing this on, and what are your reasons for this? MB Spam uses its raw power and KD to dish out damage and support, but the other two have a very different job. I don't even think categorizing the three is even practical. Yes, BSurge and FC Water obviously are probably never going to top out MB's pressure, but that's not the point of a FC Water or BSurge. What the two do is place pressure on the frontline so that they do their job as crap and slow their adrenaline gain. The remaining skills will help support spikes and such.

Force the warriors to lineback? What the hell do you even mean by that? Dishing enough damage to slow the monk's energy? Forcing the warriors to lineback you?

At the very least, this is poor compensation. Your flagger is not going to be with your main team all the time.

Honestly, I couldn't care less what you beat flawlessly with a build. I haven't said it now, but I will. Balanced (normal) is definitely harder to use, but the reason our guild is planning on using it is because it builds faster due to its adapation. Right now, we're not trying to win, we're trying to get better.

About the ranger, im used to playing with a champ 7 ranger so im used to having a ranger that can multitask.

If the other teams wars are beating the shit out of your monks, you lineback the warriors to make them less able to frenzy against your backline.

Yes you don't have a mainteam snare, but if the flagger carries it it makes him more able to hold the base against wars.

Jam Jar · Jul 23, 2009, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

About the ranger, im used to playing with a champ 7 ranger so im used to having a ranger that can multitask.

You said: "your ranger should be able to provide all the interupts you need"

That, I think, is impossible. Again, assuming your ranger doesn't camp up to the enemy backline, interrupting 3/4 casts will be very hard because of your flight-time. This being said, good luck trying to interrupt anything 3/4 or lower. Even if you say a ranger can multitask, at the very least, spreading poison and interrupting at the same time is going to make either job more complicated and harder. With a PBlock, you'll be able to give some breathing room for the ranger while giving better shutdown to the backline and midline casters.

Champ 7? I could care less about ranks or experience, it doesn't change the fact that he's a human being with human reflexes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

If the other teams wars are beating the shit out of your monks, you lineback the warriors to make them less able to frenzy against your backline.

Wtf are you talking about? You said that Mindblast would force the warriors to lineback, and I simply found absolutely no correlation. My question was asking how this could be possible.

You said: "MB Spam>Bsurge>FC Water If your running the build right their wars should be forced to lineback constantly"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

Yes you don't have a mainteam snare, but if the flagger carries it it makes him more able to hold the base against wars.

Again, you're missing my point. What I said before was simply adding in a snare to your flagger gives little to zero compensation for your lack of an FC Water. A flagger can easily hold a base with his heals and weapon spells. Besides, isn't Freezing Gust the meta for prism flagger?

Zzes Tyan · Jul 23, 2009, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jam Jar

You said: "your ranger should be able to provide all the interupts you need"

That, I think, is impossible. Again, assuming your ranger doesn't camp up to the enemy backline, interrupting 3/4 casts will be very hard because of your flight-time. This being said, good luck trying to interrupt anything 3/4 or lower. Even if you say a ranger can multitask, at the very least, spreading poison and interrupting at the same time is going to make either job more complicated and harder. With a PBlock, you'll be able to give some breathing room for the ranger while giving better shutdown to the backline and midline casters.

Champ 7? I could care less about ranks or experience, it doesn't change the fact that he's a human being with human reflexes.

Wtf are you talking about? You said that Mindblast would force the warriors to lineback, and I simply found absolutely no correlation. My question was asking how this could be possible.

You said: "MB Spam>Bsurge>FC Water If your running the build right their wars should be forced to lineback constantly"

Again, you're missing my point. What I said before was simply adding in a snare to your flagger gives little to zero compensation for your lack of an FC Water. A flagger can easily hold a base with his heals and weapon spells. Besides, isn't Freezing Gust the meta for prism flagger?

mindblast adds alot of pressure, making the monks burn their energy, eventually the whole team will wipe if the warriors dont lineback the ele and wars (by lineback i meant play defensively, pushing interupts on the MB instead of offensively on the monks)
and by interupts i mean dchops and dshots

Besides, isn't Freezing Gust the meta for prism flagger?

yes and no, many guilds run Soothing Memories

@ the ranger comment.

having reflexes is part of it, but you also need to make split second decistions about whether to keep or dshot a skill which only comes with experiance

Jam Jar · Jul 23, 2009, 04:49 AM // 04:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

mindblast adds alot of pressure, making the monks burn their energy, eventually the whole team will wipe if the warriors dont lineback the ele and wars (by lineback i meant play defensively, pushing interupts on the MB instead of offensively on the monks)
and by interupts i mean dchops and dshots

It's important to note first that warriors dish out a lot more pressure than Mindblast, probably with deepwound alone. In addition, while Mindblast may indeed deal more pressure through damage, B-Surge and FC Water do it through hexes. It takes 5 energy to heal 150~200ish, but it also takes 5 energy to remove a hex or condition. I can't give you the exact calculations, but remember that Freezing Gust, for example, also does damage. Constant damage on top of hexes (snares, conditions) will beat out pure damage in terms of sapping energy from the enemy backline.

While pushing, B-Surge may use its remaining skills for aiding in spikes and pressure, and FC Water can use its snares and damage to also aid spikes or pressure. While pulling, B-Surge and FC Water obviously do a better job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

many guilds run Soothing Memories

Please, if you're going to respond, stay on track. The real question is whether or not freezing gust on a prism runner is enough compensation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

having reflexes is part of it, but you also need to make split second decistions about whether to keep or dshot a skill which only comes with experiance

Maybe you still don't understand. It's VERY HARD to twitch if you're not upclose, not moving, and not doing another action. This is also straying ridiculously off topic. I don't care if dshoting a skill only comes with experience, we were trying to settle out whether or not a single ranger can take care of all interrupts just a minute ago.

Zzes Tyan · Jul 23, 2009, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Freezing only does dmg if they have a water hex, you talk about mindblast like it has no snares either, a 100% snare is a snare.

warriors deal out about the same pressure as a mindblast, only mindblast isnt caught as easily (compared to Melee v Guardian)

*lemming* · Jul 23, 2009, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

About the ranger, im used to playing with a champ 7 ranger so im used to having a ranger that can multitask.

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Yue · Jul 23, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

I can count the number of champ 7 rangers on one hand, and I don't recall any of them playing for an "Absence of Light."

And how is mindblast a 100% snare.

Ex Death · Jul 23, 2009, 04:05 PM // 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jam Jar

A bit unrelated, but I've also got a question about the Balanced build. Recently, the fast cast water ele got changed to a Mindblast. Is this practical/"balanced"?

The problem you have here is that you're confusing the role of a fast cast water ele with that of a mindblast ele. The mindblast ele did not replace the fast cast water ele, the fast cast curses necro did.

lord of all tyria · Jul 23, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

I can count the number of champ 7 rangers on one hand, and I don't recall any of them playing for an "Absence of Light."

And how is mindblast a 100% snare.

Meteor is knockdown!

Jam Jar · Jul 23, 2009, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

Freezing only does dmg if they have a water hex, you talk about mindblast like it has no snares either, a 100% snare is a snare.

Well no shit freezing only does damage if there's a water hex. Bip woop. The point I'm trying to make is that FC water adds a lot more pressure to frontline because of the hexes on TOP of some damage. The damage only makes it more appealing. You've got steam damage and shardstorm damage, and possibly an added in freezing gust to spike/support spike. The fast casting side makes the job a lot easier as you cut down even from the 1 second casts. In support spiking, FC Water will come out tops for spiking. For pressure? Yeah, Mindblast may beat FC Water through damage, but you're forgetting, or at least not addressing, that it takes energy to remove hexes.

Meteor as a 100% snare? Yeah focking right. You call 30 seconds a 100% snare? That just make freezing gust/shardstorm look like a 600% snare.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zzes Tyan

warriors deal out about the same pressure as a mindblast, only mindblast isnt caught as easily (compared to Melee v Guardian)

BS. Deepwound automatically kills off 20% of the monk's health, and let's not even WORRY about the rest of the skills on a warrior's bar. Mindblast has a pretty slow spike, a slow recharge ranged KD, and AoE. An axe warrior can out DPS them with a faster spike, bigger damage, and fast recharge KDs. Besides, who the hell doesn't know how to target change through guardian?

And for the love of God, can we stick on topic, PLEASE. We've already flipped our replies upside down because of your random offtopics. This isn't helping me or anyone else reading the thread. What we were first discussing was: whether or not the ranger is capable to take care of all interrupts, whether or not Mindblast can replace FC Water or B-Surge, and lastly, whether or not Freezing Gust on a flagger is enough compensation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex Death

The problem you have here is that you're confusing the role of a fast cast water ele with that of a mindblast ele. The mindblast ele did not replace the fast cast water ele, the fast cast curses necro did.

There's not even an FC CE in the build... Some random guy remade Balanced to have Mindblast as the base and have the PBlock mesmer/CE/(and if you insist, a FC CE as well) as the optional. Was it a good change? I don't think so. Besides, how the hell does a FC CE take the job of a snarer/damage? I barely see any correlation.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jul 23, 2009, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jam Jar

There's not even an FC CE in the build... Some random guy remade Balanced to have Mindblast as the base and have the PBlock mesmer/CE/(and if you insist, a FC CE as well) as the optional. Was it a good change? I don't think so. Besides, how the hell does a FC CE take the job of a snarer/damage? I barely see any correlation.

Typically in most balanced builds the non anti physical characters are the optionals. You most always want to keep one of those and build the team around it, which is exactly what the new Corrupt enchant mesmer does, provides enchant strips, creates pressure through degen, anti melee hex and anti physical condition(weakness) and amplifies physical damage with barbs. As with any anti-physical midline character monks have to expel energy on faint, weakness on front line, and remove barbs. The CE is the constant within the build because it allows for your main team to have amplified damage at the stand while providing some degree of melee hate. While a split team tries to split you, you can potentially wipe their main team easier.

Mindblast ele was more likely chosen to complement the direction of the build by;
a)causing added pressure through utilizing a spamable bar, that has a KD, AOE damage, isn't so much of a softy because of a spamable block stance
b)gave the build a character that is better suited for the winning tiebreaker condition(Lord damage)

If you can't see the correlation there then I don't know what else to say. Anyways this topic has moved off course.

By all means you could change any character you want within the build, in the end though what you want is to make a build that has a focus to it, whether that would be overload hex, pressure spike, splitting capabilities the choice is yours. You could probably stick a Mirror of Ice ele instead of the Mindblast and move towards having plenty of cover hexes for barbs while you pain train something and strip guardians/soa/shielding hands while having the target snared and added dmg from mirror. That would also give you 2 characters within the build with strong snares if you want to play the collapse game on people trying to split, you just won't have a robust character like the Mindblast ele that can split and be self reliant.

Kumlekar · Jul 27, 2009, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jam Jar

The point I'm trying to make is that FC water adds a lot more pressure to frontline because of the hexes on TOP of some damage. The damage only makes it more appealing. You've got steam damage and shardstorm damage, and possibly an added in freezing gust to spike/support spike. The fast casting side makes the job a lot easier as you cut down even from the 1 second casts. In support spiking, FC Water will come out tops for spiking. For pressure? Yeah, Mindblast may beat FC Water through damage, but you're forgetting, or at least not addressing, that it takes energy to remove hexes.

BS. Deepwound automatically kills off 20% of the monk's health, and let's not even WORRY about the rest of the skills on a warrior's bar. Mindblast has a pretty slow spike, a slow recharge ranged KD, and AoE. An axe warrior can out DPS them with a faster spike, bigger damage, and fast recharge KDs. Besides, who the hell doesn't know how to target change through guardian?

And for the love of God, can we stick on topic, PLEASE. We've already flipped our replies upside down because of your random offtopics. This isn't helping me or anyone else reading the thread. What we were first discussing was: whether or not the ranger is capable to take care of all interrupts, whether or not Mindblast can replace FC Water or B-Surge, and lastly, whether or not Freezing Gust on a flagger is enough compensation.

Keeping in mind that I'm pretty much a noob at gvg, I see a major problem with the assumption that mindblast is a bad idea due to losing out on interupts or snares (not sure which you're assuming to be replaced.) In either case, the mindblast ele primarily compensates with greater spilt ability. If the MB ele is replacing a p-block mesmer, you are not so much assuming that a ranger can handle all interupts, as forcing your ranger to use interupts more defensively whereas with the mesmer they can be more offensive to increase pressure because defensive usage is covered. This is not to say that the ranger should stop using them to disable before a spike completely, but they wil play a much more defensive role and help with spikes than the pressure they might provide with a p-block mes around.

Replacing the FC water instead would reduce pressure on your opponents mindline which you are forced to compensate for by linbacking their warriors more often. If the MB is not on the split, fire spells can serve a similar purpose.

Neither of these trades are in your favor at stand, but the increased split can compensate depending on the situation. MB allows for a win at tiebreaker easily, trades one of your midline for their flagger at stand (not a bad trade at all), provides good pressure (not on par with a warrior, but resistant to prots), is resistant to spikes, and can deal damage on spike (again, not as much as a FC or warrior, but more than a dom mes.)

MB vs. P-block
MB:
1. Greater split
2. Greater damage
3. Trades midline for runner at stand
4. Win at tiebreaker
P-Block
1. Greater pressure through interupts disables and e-denial

MB vs. FC water
MB:
1. Greater split
2. Higher pressure at stand (may not be true, would have to compare hex removal to damage, though if the ele is running rodgorts, its probably higher, if its storm djins the fc might win out.)
3. Trades midline for runner at stand
4. Win at tiebreaker
FC Water:
1. Higher damage on spike
2. Greatly reduces enemy's frontline's damage and spiking speed.

Uh, yeah, thank your for reading my uninformed post.

Big fella · Jul 27, 2009, 09:38 AM // 09:38

Hey jam jar... guess what the thread title says? Frontline Help.
keep to it